Time Nick Message 00:14 pdurbin mhayden: https://twitter.com/HoldMyBeerGif/status/576141882889277441 00:14 pdurbin bene: so you like the look of Matrix? 00:15 pdurbin er, that was for bear 00:17 bear I have looked at it lightly - will be exploring it more this weekend 00:28 pdurbin gotcha 00:29 pdurbin oh, and I enjoyed all the chatter about IRC at http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-13#t1426285076716 00:29 pdurbin "IRC is the stepping stone to a indieweb identity federated chat environment" --bear 00:30 bear i've been thinking about this for a long time now 00:34 pdurbin Back in the day, people were upset about the lack of interop between AIM and Yahoo Messenger and MSN Messenger and whatever else. They said they wanted federated chat. 00:35 * bear nods 00:35 bear we used to have it, for a very short period, when they all had xmpp gateways 00:35 bear but that went away 00:36 pdurbin so it goes 00:37 pdurbin I wonder how an indieweb federated chat environment would differ from XMPP. 00:39 bear no xml is the biggest thing 00:39 bear it would probably be html or json snippets 00:40 bear but all of that is plumbing as tantek likes to say 00:41 bear so at the core, it probably would not be much different than a basic xmpp message - since all that is really is JID and the message text 00:42 pdurbin makes sense 00:42 bear a JID in the indieweb realm is your domain 00:43 bear and text is text - all of the rest is extra: timestamp, tags, etc 00:43 pdurbin searchbot: lucky xmpp jid 00:43 searchbot pdurbin: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0029.html 00:44 bear JID == Jabber ID 00:44 bear user@domain 00:44 bear so a JID maps perfectly to a indieweb id if you run your own xmpp server 00:45 pdurbin yeah, I'm seeing the example "room@chat.example.com/user@host" here: RFC 6122 - Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP): Address Format - http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6122 00:46 bear that's a long form alternate 00:46 pdurbin ah 00:46 bear it's userid@xmpp_host 00:47 bear as long as xmpp_host can be resolved to a server name 00:47 bear to get the IP and port 00:47 bear and userid is meaningful in that xmpp server's userid space 00:47 bear my personal xmpp JID is bear@bear.im 00:47 prologic heh 00:47 bear which is also my email address 00:47 prologic IHMO IRC has always been the more superior form of chat 00:48 bear that's because IRC is chat at it's most basic 00:48 pdurbin well, chat was bolted on to XMPP as an extension, right? XEP-0045: Multi-User Chat - http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html 00:48 bear right 00:48 bear IRC == MUC 00:49 prologic yeah 00:49 pdurbin I mean, XMPP was primarily built for private one-to-one messaging. AIM, basically. 00:49 prologic let's not forget that many of these so-called chat protocols were in fact extensions of IRC itself :) 00:49 prologic e.g: MSN 00:50 bear yea, they all come from the same chat parents: UUCP groups aka usenet 00:50 bear IRC, XMPP, etc 00:51 bear it's always been identity that drove most of this 00:51 bear and why silos are king 00:51 pdurbin Wait, I thought Usenet was NNTP. That's not chat. 00:52 bear before usenet switching to NNTP it was UUCP bangpath delivered 00:52 bear think BBS - Fidonet stuff 00:52 bear you sent your message which was tagged for a group to your upstream 00:54 bear I really should be saying UUCP news - because the smallest pieces of UUCP were mail and news 00:54 pdurbin so that was... kind of like chat? 00:54 bear yep 00:54 pdurbin ok 00:54 bear you sent to your upstream server your "news article" 00:54 pdurbin but how "real time" was it? 00:54 bear hahahaha 00:54 bear it wasn't real time at all 00:55 bear each ! path item had to be dialed by modem 00:55 prologic that's where talk/wall came in 00:55 prologic then soon after irc :) 00:55 bear right - but those were only valid on the server you were in 00:55 pdurbin well, for my money chat is real time 00:55 bear right 00:55 prologic right 00:55 pdurbin if it's not real time, it's something else. a forum or whatever 00:55 prologic but they became the irc we know today 00:55 bear yea, I'm just bringing these up as examples of history 00:56 pdurbin sure sure 00:56 prologic well to be fair 00:56 prologic irc could be even more realtime 00:56 bear yea, the indieweb folks want to bring irc over to the web side so they can mix realtime chat *and* forums 00:56 prologic but it would require a different kind of protocol :) 00:56 prologic one that was event based :) 00:56 bear yea, your talking google wave type eventing 00:56 prologic precisely 00:56 prologic and bringing irc more to the web I think is a great thing 00:56 prologic look at slack 00:57 bear which was xmpp based :) 00:57 prologic they have a fancy ass chat system 00:57 prologic which is great 00:57 prologic but also offer xmpp and irc gateways 00:57 prologic which is just awesome 00:57 bear yea, slack is what we use at work now for a lot of stuff 00:57 prologic I wish we did 00:57 bear and I use it mostly thru my IRC client 00:57 prologic we use stink'n Hipchat 00:58 prologic it's UI sucks ass 00:58 pdurbin You guys want Google Wave? Isn't IRC real time enough? 00:58 prologic and well everything about it sucks really 00:58 bear because it has a better presentation than it's web 00:58 prologic pdurbin, IHMO - yes 00:58 prologic :) 00:58 bear ugh - never liked hipchat 00:58 prologic no me neither 00:58 prologic it's quite frankly horrible 00:58 prologic and utterly useless really 00:58 prologic you can connect to it via irc using bitlbee 00:58 prologic but that's an even worse experience ihmo 00:59 prologic such a useless thing Atlassian bought 00:59 bear that sounds fragile 00:59 prologic some software really should just die 00:59 prologic :) 00:59 bear agreed 01:00 bear this is one area that the indieweb folk get a bit backwards - for federated to work you need to focus on the pipes 01:00 bear and make sure that your interface to the pipe is flexible, but you still need to get the plumbing right 01:01 pdurbin I've asked if indieweb leads to group think: https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-16/line/1413498731528 01:01 bear they manage to avoid cargo cults a lot 01:01 bear come close sometimes, but they haven't yet 01:02 bear because they always treat the UX as key and don't sweat the implementation 01:03 prologic we should hack on charla at https://bitbucket.org/prologic/charla 01:03 pdurbin Don't get me wrong, I like the indieweb people. I'm maybe 80% with their party line. 01:03 prologic and bring this to the web via websocekts 01:04 * bear nods 01:04 prologic and also bring federated features 01:04 prologic such as linking to other irc networks 01:04 bear right 01:04 prologic and even interfacing with jabber/xmpp networks 01:04 prologic the design of charla is flexible enough to achieve this 01:04 bear some of them are html only!!!! 01:04 prologic without god objects 01:04 prologic or cargo cult programming 01:04 prologic ): 01:04 prologic fuck the html only ones :) 01:05 bear those thankfully are a very small part 01:05 pdurbin prologic: you're going to make IRC federated? "No open federation" is something Matrix wants to improve on according to "What’s the difference between Matrix and IRC?" at https://matrix.org/blog/faq/ 01:05 bear charla sounds a lot like what the matrix folks are trying to d 01:05 prologic well it's not that hard really 01:05 bear o 01:05 prologic one thing that can be done with a new irc server implentnation 01:06 prologic is the notion of handling duplicate identities 01:06 prologic such that two or more people can use the same handle if you will 01:06 prologic but not in the same "room" 01:06 pdurbin that sounds... confusing 01:06 prologic this could be extended even further too 01:06 prologic not really :) 01:06 prologic it could be done seamlessly 01:07 prologic without users having to do much at all 01:07 prologic bear: yeah :) 01:07 prologic I wish I had a bit of help, etc 01:07 prologic I run out of steam on that one for the time being 01:08 bear yea, my new role as project manager for our dev team has me swamped - or I would be hacking on a lot of this stuff as it really interests me 01:08 prologic it's a prototype at best atm, but the structure is there to extend it to whatever we want 01:08 pdurbin prologic: bummer, they're using twisted rather than circuits: https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse 01:08 prologic I'm focused atm on vallinux 01:08 prologic so yeah 01:09 prologic pdurbin, uggh 01:09 pdurbin lolz 01:09 prologic that'll slow their progress down significantly 01:09 prologic seriously 01:09 prologic the twisted framework is nuts 01:09 pdurbin prologic: send them a pull request ;) 01:09 prologic not to mention it's not a component architecture 01:09 prologic so no loose coupling 01:09 prologic :( 01:09 prologic haha 01:10 pdurbin bear: sounds fun though 01:10 prologic hmm 01:10 prologic no thanks 01:10 prologic that codebase looks huge already 01:11 pdurbin I guess IRC is still good enough for now. 01:11 * pdurbin puts his feet up 01:12 bear :) 01:22 prologic haha 01:37 pdurbin I'm told that this issue has something to do with "read-only view of the public matrix rooms" https://matrix.org/jira/browse/SYN-283 01:38 pdurbin nice people 02:13 pdurbin "Creation and management of fully distributed chat rooms with no single points of control or failure" http://matrix.org/docs/spec/ 02:13 pdurbin that does sound pretty neat 12:21 pdurbin speaking of IRC 12:21 pdurbin this is an interesting thread: 12:21 pdurbin Jeff Atwood on Twitter: "I like Slack, and I kinda hate IRC, but the idea of Slack "replacing" IRC is not good. Only an open source tool should ever do that." - https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/575797613909278720 12:23 pdurbin I'm not sure I agree with this though: 12:24 pdurbin Jeff Atwood on Twitter: "@Myotherpants pretty much, problem is, chat produces near zero useful search results. (vs. forums, vs. stack) so hard to get excited about" - https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/575798049907171328 12:25 pdurbin ... because in practice, now that I have years of logged chat conversations from this channel and others indexed by Google I'm easily able to find old conversations that have good information in them. 12:28 pdurbin And yet, Mr. Atwood seems interested in improving chat, some day: https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/575799919681765377 12:29 pdurbin And *someone* at Stack Exchange built a chat thing. 12:29 pdurbin So clearly he thinks chat has some value. 12:41 larsks pdurbin: I think the point re: search is that while inidividuals may have chat logs, there is no good "search all the chats" site anywhere, and it's not possible in any search engine to say, "restrict my results to irc conversations". 16:26 pdurbin yeah, that could be his point 17:03 bear chat is like the saying "a person is good, a crowd is not" -- being able to search single chat room logs is meaningful because of the implied topic scope where as searching across multiple chat room logs is nigh impossible because of identity and topic divergence 17:03 bear only if your logging process can link the chatter identity across rooms (like what the stack exchange team did) *and* keep each room focused on a topic, then you will get the most benefit from it 17:04 pdurbin Yeah. I mean Twitter is fine for just general chatter but I like that IRC is split into rooms based on topics. 17:08 larsks Huh. You could write a client that would present an irc-like view of twitter based on hash tags, which would actually look pretty natural to irc users. You know, "/join #crimsonfu" would put you in a window that only saw messages with the '#crimsonfu' hashtag, and any messages you typed there would automatically get the hashtag appended... 17:08 pdurbin could do 17:10 larsks That would be sort of run. And you would call it "twirc". And using it would be "twircing". 17:10 larsks s/run/fun/ 17:10 bear lol 17:27 pdurbin nice, I'm not the only one who has used that hashtag: https://twitter.com/hashtag/crimsonfu :) 17:50 pdurbin I dunno. Twitter was way more interesting to me when it seemed like it wanted to be plumbing: http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/11/why-i-like-twitter.html 17:51 pdurbin "Twitter is a re-incarnation of the old Unix philosophy of simple, cooperating tools." 17:51 pdurbin but now Twitter wants you to use their client exclusively 17:54 pdurbin I guess I'm saying I'm fine with something better or different coming along. 18:23 larsks Oh man, someone did it already: https://github.com/semifor/twirc 18:25 pdurbin 'This isn't normal IRC 18:25 pdurbin behavior, but "twirc" isn't a normal IRC server. 18:26 pdurbin :) 23:15 melodie good night 23:51 larsks Also this: https://twirc.io/ 23:52 larsks ...which does almost exactly what I was suggesting (treating hashtags like channels), although through a web ui rather than actually implementing an irc interface.