Time  Nick          Message
00:54 ironcamel     pdurbin: sorry, i pointed App::Notes to a private gist, which is normally what you would do, unless you wanted your notes to be public
00:55 ironcamel     pdurbin: but just imagine a gist, with multiple files. each new note you make creates a new file in the gitst.
00:55 ironcamel     pdurbin: a nice side effect of this is that if you name your note foo.md, the file in the gist on github will get nice markdown formatting if you include markdown in the gist.
00:56 ironcamel     pdurbin: or if you name your note foo.pl, it will get perl syntax hilighting, etc.
01:33 pdurbin       ironcamel: fancy syntax highlighting is certainly something i haven't pursued with ikiwiki... yet
01:41 pdurbin       so i went to that "smashing the stack" talk and it was great
01:42 pdurbin       i think shuff had pointed me to this project by the guy who gave it: https://github.com/nelhage/reptyr
01:43 pdurbin       http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/2009/exploit/ is full of interesting tidbits
01:43 pdurbin       including an older version of his slides: http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/2009/exploit/stack.pdf
01:43 pdurbin       and this is full of fun: http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/2009/exploit/stack.tgz
01:46 pdurbin       unfortunately, i got there a little late and missed at least 20 minutes :(
01:47 ironcamel     reptyr looks great
01:47 ironcamel     its for when you forget to start a screen and wish you had, it seems like
01:47 ironcamel     though now i never do anything outside of screen
01:47 ironcamel     even locally
01:49 pdurbin       yeah, i love screen
01:49 pdurbin       oh and nelhage works at ksplice, which shuff and whorka will appreciate
01:50 pdurbin       ironcamel: you'll appreciate that http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/2009/exploit/stack.tgz is full of perl :)
01:50 ironcamel     cool
01:50 pdurbin       perl: the hacker's best friend
01:51 pdurbin       i told my five year old that i was going to a talk tonight and she asked what it's about
01:51 pdurbin       "hacking"
01:51 pdurbin       "daddy, what is hacking?" :)
01:52 ironcamel     my daughter asks me what do i do all day at work, type in that black screen? haha
01:54 pdurbin       i think my greatest achievement was my daughter asking me, "daddy, do you even use a mouse?"
01:54 ironcamel     hahaha, awesome
01:55 pdurbin       oh, i came across this definition the other day and love it: "hacker: A person who delights in having an intimate understanding of the internal workings of a system, computers and computer networks in particular." -- http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1983
01:56 ironcamel     pdurbin: do you have an opinion about using arch linux as a desktop os?
01:56 pdurbin       on this laptop i'm on now. . . sure. it's mine
01:57 ironcamel     you are running arch right now?
01:57 pdurbin       when i switched jobs i decided i really, really wanted my own laptop that's mine. that i can do whatever i want with
01:57 pdurbin       nope. fedora
01:57 pdurbin       i *could* run arch
01:57 pdurbin       of course, that sounds like work :)
01:58 * pdurbin     reads http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_Linux
01:58 ironcamel     i bought a laptop finally to replace my dying desktop. i tried install debian stable, but the kernel of that is still 2.x which doesn't have the wifi drivers i need. i need a 3.x kernel.
01:59 ironcamel     i bought a laptop from system76, which came pre-installed with ubuntu.
01:59 ironcamel     so i made sure to buy a linux friendly laptop.
01:59 pdurbin       pacman, huh? do you like pacman?
01:59 ironcamel     i have never used it
01:59 ironcamel     don't know anything about it
01:59 ironcamel     but am willing to learn :)
02:00 pdurbin       so, thomas hatch, who keeps coming up because he's the guy behind salt, is a core dev of arch, i think
02:00 ironcamel     and i think i read arch is a rolling release distro
02:00 ironcamel     which is nice
02:01 pdurbin       i like fedora as a concept
02:01 pdurbin       and i'm not damning with faint praise. i think it's a good model
02:01 ironcamel     i don't like fedora/rhel package management
02:02 pdurbin       no?
02:02 ironcamel     don't you agree apt* is better?
02:02 ironcamel     i remember using fedora and it taking forever each time i did any yum command
02:02 pdurbin       i barely know what i'm doing with ubuntu. see http://wiki.greptilian.com/ubuntu/
02:03 ironcamel     because it talked out to the internet and had to update itself each time
02:03 pdurbin       and see http://irclog.perlgeek.de/crimsonfu/2012-04-18#i_5461430 (ventz teaching me ubuntu)
02:04 pdurbin       ironcamel: that's what rpm(1) is for, for local operations
02:04 ironcamel     i started with fedora, and switched to ubuntu around the time of Feisty Fawn, and remember package management was hugely better, and so i stuck with ubuntu until last year
02:05 ironcamel     when they decided they wanted to pull that unity ui crap
02:05 pdurbin       and now you're on. . . what?  i forget
02:05 pdurbin       debian, right?
02:05 ironcamel     well, my work latop was linux mint debian edition
02:06 ironcamel     which is pretty nice
02:06 ironcamel     but i figured i would be more hard core and go with plain debian
02:07 ironcamel     pdurbin: so you are using gnome shell? isn't that terrible?
02:07 pdurbin       yeah, i've been meaning to try plain debian
02:07 pdurbin       i'm using gnome shell right now. it's killing me
02:07 pdurbin       but i'm sooooo lazy
02:07 ironcamel     LMDE did a really cool thing
02:07 ironcamel     they use gnome3
02:07 ironcamel     but not gnome shell
02:07 ironcamel     they use cinammon
02:07 pdurbin       i'd rather complain about gnome 3 than do anything about it ;)
02:08 ironcamel     which is a traditional gnome feel, but uses the gnome3 goodness
02:08 ironcamel     gnome shell is beautiful, but broken from a usability standpoint
02:08 ironcamel     cinammon keeps the beauty, and makes it usable
02:09 pdurbin       i guess i'm kinda hoping fedora figures something out. 'cause gnome 3 isn't doing it for me and probably a lot of people
02:09 ironcamel     it's really gnome shell that you don't like
02:09 ironcamel     gnome3 is just the underpinnings
02:09 pdurbin       you're right. i should be more precise
02:10 pdurbin       i should try cinammon. i've been told this before. even here in #crimsonfu, i believe
02:10 ironcamel     pdurbin: google fedora cinnamon
02:10 pdurbin       but maybe, just maybe, gnome shell will be gone or better in the next version of fedora :)
02:10 ironcamel     that's what i hoped about unity ui and ubuntu :)
02:11 pdurbin       i'm a pretty patient person
02:11 pdurbin       patient/lazy
02:11 ironcamel     but they just doubled down instead
02:11 pdurbin       i don't think 2012 will be the year of the linux desktop
02:12 ironcamel     sadly you are most likely right
02:12 pdurbin       i wonder how many businesses use rhel for desktops
02:12 pdurbin       probably not many
02:12 pdurbin       but can you imagine when rhel 7 comes out
02:13 ironcamel     no
02:13 pdurbin       and all the poor desktop users scream "WTF?"
02:13 ironcamel     what is special about rhel 7?
02:14 pdurbin       will rhel 7 have gnome shell? i hope not! or i hope it's better
02:15 ironcamel     i know at rackspace the majority of devs are running ubuntu, from what i could see
02:15 ironcamel     by the way, i am going to be working for crowdtilt.com starting monday
02:16 pdurbin       nice. congrats!
02:17 ironcamel     thanks
02:17 pdurbin       (so the link work: http://crowdtilt.com )
02:17 pdurbin       works
02:17 ironcamel     did you have a doubt :)
02:17 pdurbin       it's a kickstarter, basically
02:18 ironcamel     yep
02:18 ironcamel     a kickstarter for normal human beings
02:18 pdurbin       i mean it's not linkable from http://irclog.perlgeek.de/crimsonfu/2012-04-26#i_5496963 or gnome-terminal
02:19 pdurbin       some guy left my organization a few years ago. said he was going to "myspace for old folks"
02:19 pdurbin       or maybe it was "facebook for old folks"
02:19 pdurbin       either way, i'm not sure if his company is still around...
02:19 ironcamel     heh
02:20 pdurbin       "powered by perl dancer"!!
02:20 ironcamel     yes!
02:20 pdurbin       ok, it all makes sense now
02:20 ironcamel     :)
02:20 pdurbin       duke leto is doing some interesting startup. hold on
02:21 ironcamel     is it the one about teaching kids programming?
02:21 pdurbin       Twitter Commerce - http://chirpify.com
02:21 ironcamel     i may be thinking of chromatic
02:22 ironcamel     that looks interesting
02:22 pdurbin       somehow i know duke leto as the guy behind http://search.cpan.org/dist/Math-GSL/
02:22 pdurbin       maybe i heard him on a podcast or something
02:23 ironcamel     i think of him as one of the main perl6 guys
02:24 pdurbin       yet he's on the jekyll (ruby) mailing list. anyway
02:24 ironcamel     i follow him on twitter. though i don't pay attention to twitter anymore since i started using g+
02:25 pdurbin       twitter's killer feature is the @reply
02:25 ironcamel     i don't have enough bandwidth :)
02:25 ironcamel     how so?
02:25 pdurbin       i can write
02:25 ironcamel     doesn't every tool on the internet have @reply
02:25 pdurbin       @ironcamel check out this cool thing...
02:25 ironcamel     every social type app has that feature
02:25 pdurbin       and pretty much no one will see it, unless they are following you too
02:26 ironcamel     no, not even if they were following me
02:26 ironcamel     only if they were following you
02:27 pdurbin       i'm not being clear. i had a name for this. twitter allows eavesdropping, basically, which is cool
02:27 pdurbin       people can @reply back and forth and not bother anyone. but others can listen in if they want to
02:28 ironcamel     wouldn't you have to be following all participants in order to listen in?
02:29 pdurbin       here. compare Philip Durbin - Google+ - This is for +Naveed Massjouni per… - https://plus.google.com/107770072576338242009/posts/TbK2cGSfN73
02:29 ironcamel     and why would you care about listening in to a shallow conversation, which is all that twitter allows
02:29 pdurbin       to (hold on)
02:30 ironcamel     i have been involved in epic conversations on g+, with people who were extremely thoughtful and intelligent, which showed in bascially the essays the would write in their responses
02:30 pdurbin       Twitter / @philipdurbin: @ironcamel i have a vague ... - http://twitter.com/philipdurbin/status/178517701797494784
02:30 ironcamel     i like the first example because it is self contained
02:31 pdurbin       but it's not about containment
02:31 ironcamel     we can use it to collaborate on a certain topic
02:31 ironcamel     and everything about it can be found in that thread
02:31 pdurbin       for me, the main difference is that eveyone who is following me on g+ sees the g plus post
02:31 ironcamel     instead of shotgunned throughout twitter
02:31 pdurbin       but on twitter, only the people who are following both you and me see the tweet
02:32 ironcamel     you can control who sees your posts very easily on g+
02:32 pdurbin       yeah, but i'm a "when in doubt, make it public" guy
02:33 pdurbin       i don't want to lock up content in any walled garden, even g+, generally
02:33 ironcamel     yeah, i default to public as well
02:33 pdurbin       so with twitter, at least i can message someone semi-privately. less broadcast-y
02:34 pdurbin       i @replied at the guy who have the security talk: http://twitter.com/philipdurbin/status/195321399110410241
02:35 pdurbin       but almost no one will see it. he may not either
02:35 ironcamel     wouldn't everyone who follows you see it?
02:35 pdurbin       but at least there's a little public record of me thanking him :)
02:35 pdurbin       no, that's the thing. that's the point, exactly
02:35 ironcamel     please explain
02:36 pdurbin       once upon a time, when twitter was new, there was no concept of @replies
02:36 pdurbin       the @ character was like any other
02:36 pdurbin       but the company noticed that users had adopted the @ convention
02:37 pdurbin       users would write:
02:37 pdurbin       @ironcamel, we should have lunch
02:37 pdurbin       and everyone would see it
02:37 pdurbin       everyone who is following me, that is
02:37 pdurbin       but then twitter flipped a switch
02:38 pdurbin       and made is so if i typed the same thing
02:38 pdurbin       @ironcamel, we should have lunch
02:38 pdurbin       the only people who see it are people who are following both me and you
02:39 ironcamel     interesting, i was not aware of that new behavior
02:39 ironcamel     so if you @reply multiple people
02:39 ironcamel     statisticly, very few or 0 other people will see it?
02:39 ironcamel     since they would have to be following all of the people that you @replied?
02:40 pdurbin       so what matters is how the tweet begins
02:41 ironcamel     ah
02:41 pdurbin       so this one for example:
02:41 pdurbin       "@ironcamel i have a vague notion of rewriting @lastminuteplans on @github with @perldancer on @openshift. want to help? http://builditwith.me/idea/7bK0"
02:42 ironcamel     i still don't see it as a huge win. just seems like a side effect of an outdated technology.
02:42 pdurbin       heh. fine
02:42 ironcamel     a technology that won't go away because of the mindshare it has acquired
02:42 pdurbin       but what other service let's me do this
02:42 pdurbin       ?
02:43 ironcamel     i'm not sure, but if i told you there is an email service that had this exact feature
02:43 pdurbin       but email isn't public...
02:43 ironcamel     but your emails could only be 140 chars long. would you sign up for this service?
02:44 ironcamel     imagine it was a new type of email that had this exact property, hybrid public/private messages
02:44 pdurbin       it's not about the character length. it's about having it be public, having it be "of the web"
02:44 pdurbin       having a permalink for the message i send to someone
02:44 pdurbin       having it be indexable by google
02:44 ironcamel     permalinks to shallow thoughts are not a big win in my book
02:45 ironcamel     not accusing you of being shallow
02:45 pdurbin       meh. i dunno. it's data. it's signal
02:45 ironcamel     but saying the limitation of the technology by definition causes that
02:46 pdurbin       but someone could build a service with the same @reply behavior. . . and have as many characters as you want
02:47 pdurbin       but only twitter has this behavior
02:47 pdurbin       (i'd be happy to be proven wrong)
02:47 ironcamel     sure, they could
02:48 ironcamel     but people most likely are not clamoring for this feature
02:48 ironcamel     most people probably are not aware of this feature
02:48 pdurbin       heh. certainly not
02:48 ironcamel     just as i was not
02:48 ironcamel     not saying it's not a cool feature :)
02:49 pdurbin       oh good, i was looking for this: Twitter Blog: How @replies work on Twitter (and how they might) - http://blog.twitter.com/2008/05/how-replies-work-on-twitter-and-how.html
02:51 pdurbin       "The beauty of this is that I can feel free to @reply Veronica without worrying about the fact that only a subset of my followers also follow Veronica, so they won't know what I'm talking about. My followers will only see my update if they follow both of us (if they have their setting on the default)."
02:51 pdurbin       (that setting is now gone, by the way. they had to remove it for performance reasons, as i understand it.)
02:52 ironcamel     if you @reply @ironcamel for example, could people who don't follow me but follow you still be able to see that tweet somehow? how?
02:52 pdurbin       sure, if they went to http://twitter.com/philipdurbin
02:52 pdurbin       or if they subscribed to the rss feed of my tweets
02:52 ironcamel     but it wouldn't show up in their stream when it happened right?
02:52 pdurbin       exactly!
02:52 ironcamel     i see
02:53 ironcamel     what if you wanted it to show up in everyone's stream?
02:53 pdurbin       so it's a cool feature. and unique to twitter
02:53 pdurbin       then, then!
02:53 ironcamel     how would you @reply me?
02:53 pdurbin       you type this
02:53 pdurbin       .@ironcamel, you da man
02:53 ironcamel     .?
02:53 pdurbin       or any character
02:53 ironcamel     space?
02:53 pdurbin       hmm, i guess
02:53 ironcamel     cool
02:53 pdurbin       the magic is in @ being the first character
02:54 pdurbin       and!
02:54 pdurbin       when i do this
02:54 pdurbin       .@ironcamel foo
02:54 pdurbin       this is no longer an @reply
02:54 pdurbin       it's an @mention
02:54 pdurbin       :)
02:55 pdurbin       i was looking at this tweet the other day: "@Cisco is looking to hire #Linux kernel hackers for high performance networking work. Interested? Ping me." -- https://twitter.com/jsquyres/status/192583814554451968
02:56 pdurbin       and thought to myself, "this guy doesn't know how @replies work"
02:56 ironcamel     hahaha
02:56 ironcamel     you are a twitter snob :)
02:56 pdurbin       "shoulda put a dot at the beginning..."
02:56 pdurbin       heh
02:56 pdurbin       the funny thing is...
02:56 pdurbin       i follow that guy!
02:56 pdurbin       but i didn't see that tweet because i don't follow @cisco
02:56 ironcamel     so how did you see that?
02:57 ironcamel     you happened to view his stream?
02:57 pdurbin       'cause this guy retweeted it: https://twitter.com/brockpalen
02:57 pdurbin       i could find you a permalink to his specific retweet. it's possible. but meh. trust me
02:58 ironcamel     i trust you
02:58 pdurbin       Twitter / @danchoi: my ideal social network is ... - https://twitter.com/#!/philipdurbin/status/147197198550040578
02:59 pdurbin       that's an example of a permalink to a retweet
02:59 pdurbin       "my ideal social network is where everyone maintains plain text files in a git repo and friends can pull the diffs periodically"
02:59 ironcamel     hehe
02:59 ironcamel     man, but what about conflicts
03:00 ironcamel     merge conflicts
03:00 pdurbin       lol
03:01 pdurbin       anyway, i guess i should type up my git/rcs question thing. or go to sleep
03:02 ironcamel     what is rcs?
03:02 pdurbin       heh
03:02 ironcamel     tell me that and then go to sleep :)
03:02 pdurbin       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revision_Control_System
03:03 pdurbin       Initial release 1982; 30 years ago
03:03 ironcamel     ah
03:03 pdurbin       see yesterday's #crimsonfu log for more :)
03:06 ironcamel     pdurbin: you may get a couple new people from crowdtilt joining this channel
03:07 ironcamel     i recommended it to them
03:07 * dsog        works at Crowdtilt :)
03:10 dsog          westmaas: yo yo
03:12 ironcamel     westmaas is a lurker :)
03:12 dsog          I see how it is.. :p
13:52 pdurbin       dsog: welcome! please feel free to introduce yourself if you like. or don't. up to you :)
15:35 dsog          pdurbin: Thanks :).
15:35 dsog          My name is Khaled and I work at Crowdtilt. I used to work with westmaas and ironcamel at Rackspace before starting Crowdtilt.
15:36 dsog          I've heard nothing but great stuff about you guys and would love to hang out here and talk geek stuff or whatever other stuff people talk about :).
15:38 westmaas      dsog: !
15:38 westmaas      :)
15:40 dsog          Yo .. how is it going man?
15:41 westmaas      doing good
15:41 pdurbin       dsog: you are welcome to be a geek with us :)
15:43 pdurbin       i happy to have more non-Harvard people here. i want more diversity, generally
15:43 pdurbin       s/i/i'm/
15:45 dsog          Is the majority here Harvard people?
15:48 * SEJeff_work is in finance
15:48 SEJeff_work   The "high frequency trading" space
15:52 pdurbin       dsog: yeah, the majority. . . right now anyway
15:53 pdurbin       tell your friends to join :)
15:54 SEJeff_work   http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/cto/2977737272.html Random OT, but best car ad on craigslist eva
15:54 dsog          pdurbin: I know that you'll get about 2-3 guys from Crowdtilt.
15:54 pdurbin       dsog: let's just not make it too perl-heavy :)  though i love perl...
15:54 pdurbin       SEJeff_work: no fun allowed
15:55 dsog          pdurbin: It probably won't be too perl-heavy. I can see it being more about networking .. deployments .. etc.
15:55 dsog          For me .. I am just here for the lolz ;).
15:55 pdurbin       Stack Overflow: Where We Hate Fun « Blog – Stack Exchange - http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/01/stack-overflow-where-we-hate-fun/
15:55 SEJeff_work   pdurbin, No fun? boo
15:55 SEJeff_work   what kind of SA are you?
15:56 pdurbin       a grumpy one
15:56 SEJeff_work   Well thats the only kind to be! Quickly solved with beer
16:07 dsog          pdurbin: magoo_ is another Crowdtilt hacker.
16:07 dsog          magoo_: meet everyone :)
16:08 magoo_        hey guys!
16:10 pdurbin       magoo_: welcome! this is me: http://crimsonfu.github.com/members/pdurbin
16:11 magoo_        pdurbin: damn, nice directory :)
16:35 SEJeff_work   pdurbin, Oh fyi tom did some insane bugfixing in salt
16:35 SEJeff_work   And it going to release 0.9.9 this weekend
16:36 SEJeff_work   It has some serious minion / master bugfixing for large environments. All of the hangs and disconnect issues *should* be fixed. There are a ton more unti tests now as well
16:54 pdurbin       SEJeff_work: awesome. thanks for the heads up. /cc sjoeboo
16:54 SEJeff_work   pdurbin, sjoeboo The point of the 0.9.9 release really was bugfixing for bigger deployments
16:55 SEJeff_work   And some nice new features as usual
16:55 pdurbin       at ~1700 hosts, are we big?
16:55 SEJeff_work   Mid-sized
16:55 pdurbin       \o/
16:56 SEJeff_work   We have a 3800 host deployment which /me thinks is our biggest at $does_not_want_to_be_named_company
16:57 sjoeboo       but do they have 18K+ cores?
16:57 SEJeff_work   heh
16:57 SEJeff_work   They have closer to 40k cores
16:58 sjoeboo       bah
17:57 ironcamel     I found a new love. I installed arch linux on my laptop last night. Installation was a breeze and everything just worked. I had been hesitant to try it because I was afraid it would have been hard.
17:58 dsog          ironcamel: How long did it take?
17:58 ironcamel     And I have the latest greatest of everything by default, perl 5.14.2 , kernel ...
17:58 dsog          The installation I mean .. last time I tried it and it was compiling everything from scratch .. it took sometime.
17:58 ironcamel     dsog: are you thinking of gentoo?
17:58 dsog          maybe ;)
17:58 ironcamel     AND it's a rolling release distro
18:00 ironcamel     dsog: it took a good 4 hours, since i was learning a lot along the way, to get installed and get set up in a workable state
18:00 ironcamel     and reading wiki's, etc. they have tons of great documentation and step by step tutorials
18:04 ironcamel     pdurbin: did you try App::Notes yet?
18:05 SEJeff_work   ironcamel, Other than it isn't a rolling distro, the same can be said for fedora
18:06 SEJeff_work   Fedora 17 beta: perl-5.14.2-211.fc17.x86_64.rpm, kernel-3.3.0-1.fc17.x86_64.rpm
18:06 SEJeff_work   But arch is good stuff
18:06 ironcamel     SEJeff_work: cool, i didn't know fedora was that bleeding edge
18:06 SEJeff_work   Yes, very
18:07 SEJeff_work   ironcamel, For Arch, may I point out: https://github.com/thatch45/archback if you want to manage your own arch repos
18:07 ironcamel     fedora was my first linux distro. what turned me away from it was it's package management
18:07 SEJeff_work   rpm is superior to deb as a format.
18:07 ironcamel     yum would take forever to do anything. it would go out and talk to the internets for every command
18:08 SEJeff_work   yum is superior to apt, but slower
18:08 ironcamel     in what way is yum superior?
18:08 SEJeff_work   Hello deltarpm (yum presto plugin), yum-fastestmirror
18:08 SEJeff_work   to name a few
18:08 SEJeff_work   multarch
18:08 SEJeff_work   which neither apt or deb as a format really support yet
18:08 SEJeff_work   I can go on :)
18:09 magoo_        plus I'm a big fan of yum provides x
18:09 magoo_        maybe you can do that with apt
18:09 SEJeff_work   The only thing meh about yum is that it does the equiv of "apt-get update" every single time before you do any operations
18:09 ironcamel     apt has a nice feature, when you delete a package, it can delete its deps for you, as long as others also are not depending on them. can yum do that?
18:10 SEJeff_work   ironcamel, package-cleanup in the yum-utils package does that
18:10 ironcamel     i mean when you delete a specific package
18:10 SEJeff_work   automatically, no
18:10 ironcamel     apt will do the cleanup then
18:10 SEJeff_work   apt really only has 2 things over yum at all
18:11 SEJeff_work   updating the repo metadata is a separate operation so it *appears* faster for those that don't do yum -C
18:11 ironcamel     the whole "apt-get update" every single time is a big pain don't you agree?
18:11 SEJeff_work   deb as a format has optional dependencies
18:11 SEJeff_work   thats awesome
18:11 SEJeff_work   rpm doesn't
18:11 SEJeff_work   ironcamel, alias yum="yum -C"
18:11 SEJeff_work   problem solved, I've moved on :)
18:11 ironcamel     ah, neat
18:11 agperson      SEJeff_work: thanks for the tip
18:12 SEJeff_work   but those are the only two areas apt is better. Overall apt and dpkg are far inferior to yum/rpm.
18:12 SEJeff_work   agperson, I get paid to do this. Just try to share my knowledge with others if it is helpful.
18:12 SEJeff_work   ironcamel, Then when you do want to update your metadata, you can do: yum makecache
18:12 SEJeff_work   functional equiv of apt-get update
18:13 SEJeff_work   And if I blabber, just tell me to shutup. It won't be scene as offensive
18:13 SEJeff_work   seen even
18:14 ironcamel     don't worry, i like to learn as much about package management as i can
18:14 agperson      having never packaged a .deb, i can't disagree with you :)
18:14 ironcamel     i have packaged lots of rpms
18:14 dsog          SEJeff_work: This is very helpful .. thanks :).
18:15 SEJeff_work   agperson, oh wow... Packaging a debian package is pain, just pain
18:15 ironcamel     and i it is a pretty ugly process imo
18:15 SEJeff_work   glad to help :)
18:15 ironcamel     have never created debs though
18:15 magoo_        do either of you know if there's an apt equivalent to 'yum provides */somefile'
18:15 SEJeff_work   dget, dch, dput, dpkg-buildpackage, pbuilder... vs rpmbuild and tar
18:15 SEJeff_work   magoo_, apt-file
18:15 ironcamel     magoo_: what does yum provides do again?
18:15 SEJeff_work   install apt-file then do sudo apt-file update and apt-file search */somefile
18:15 magoo_        ha! cool
18:15 SEJeff_work   yum ftw there
18:15 ironcamel     i was learning pacman (from arch) last night and it seems decent as well
18:15 magoo_        it tells you teh package that owns the file
18:16 magoo_        ironcamel: ^
18:16 magoo_        very handy
18:16 SEJeff_work   magoo_, and rpm -qf $(which somecommand)
18:16 SEJeff_work   vs dpkg -S, which doesn't really work 1/2 the time
18:16 magoo_        if it's installed
18:16 ironcamel     magoo_: oh, you can do that with dpkq-query i believe
18:16 SEJeff_work   right
18:16 ironcamel     dpkq-query -Sf
18:16 magoo_        ironcamel: if it's installed
18:16 SEJeff_work   apt-file does it :)
18:16 magoo_        regardless, I didn't know about either command
18:16 magoo_        so thanks :)
18:16 SEJeff_work   I do like apt-cache madison $package
18:17 SEJeff_work   very weird name, but useful. I don't think there is a simple yum equiv
18:17 ironcamel     magoo_: is it a big deal if you have to install it?
18:17 SEJeff_work   what if you don't know the package name
18:17 SEJeff_work   thats the point of doing it with yum :)
18:17 ironcamel     i have never had to install dpkq-query that i can remember, its usually there, but i could be wrong
18:17 magoo_        yes, this is the scenario
18:18 magoo_        you don't know the package but you know the file it would provide
18:18 magoo_        I run into this many times
18:18 SEJeff_work   Isn't dpkg-query equiv to dpkg? You can do dpkg -Sf
18:18 magoo_        ironcamel: so to answer your question, not a big deal to install it, if you know what to install
18:19 SEJeff_work   looks like no it isn't. ironcamel I didn't know dpkg-query -Sf. Thanks!
18:19 ironcamel     magoo_: btw, it is just dpkg-query -S
18:19 ironcamel     dpkg-query -S /etc/vim/vimrc
18:19 SEJeff_work   Another thing. rpm -V is very handy when you have a messed up package and want to see what has changed at a glance
18:19 SEJeff_work   debsums will do the md5, but nothing else
18:19 ironcamel     SEJeff_work: looks like dpkg -S /etc/vim/vimrc works as well :)
18:20 SEJeff_work   Yeah but it is more vague
18:20 SEJeff_work   sometimes returns multiple packages or a "best guess"
18:20 SEJeff_work   On the LPIC-1 a few years ago, I got 100% on package management
18:20 SEJeff_work   Errr almost 4 years ago when I took that
18:22 magoo_        ironcamel: sweet, that works. did you understand the scenario i was talking about though?
18:22 magoo_        about to try out apt-file
18:22 SEJeff_work   apt-file update requires root
18:22 SEJeff_work   apt-file search does not
18:22 ironcamel     magoo_: yeah, that is exactly what i use dpkq-query -S for
18:23 ironcamel     the other command i use is dpkq-query -L
18:23 magoo_        but dpkg operates on installed packages
18:23 ironcamel     to list files of a package. it is kinda the reverse of -S
18:23 SEJeff_work   dpkg -L is equiv to rpm -ql
18:23 SEJeff_work   and dpkg -l is rpm -qa
18:24 ironcamel     yeah, i use rpm -qa and rpm -qf a lot
18:24 SEJeff_work   indeed
18:24 SEJeff_work   rpm -qf $(which foo) <3
18:24 magoo_        right, the scenario I'm referring to is that you don't have a package installed that provides x, you don't know what the package is called, but you know what x is called
18:24 magoo_        that's when i use yum provides
18:24 SEJeff_work   magoo_, If you find a way outside of apt-file to do that on debian-ish systems please let me know. I would be interested in learning it.
18:24 ironcamel     magoo_: ah. and dpkg cant do that for you?
18:24 magoo_        and apt-file is what provides that
18:24 SEJeff_work   yes
18:25 magoo_        ironcamel: i can't imagine it could
18:25 magoo_        since it'll only operate on _installed_ pkgs
18:25 SEJeff_work   ironcamel, it only operates on locally installed packages
18:25 ironcamel     magoo_: apt-file will do that for you?
18:25 SEJeff_work   yes
18:25 ironcamel     cool
18:25 magoo_        yeah, i'm about to try it too
18:25 magoo_        took forever to update the cache
18:27 magoo_        ie. apt-file search /usr/bin/tcpflow
18:27 magoo_        tcpflow: /usr/bin/tcpflow
18:27 ironcamel     sweet
18:27 magoo_        yeah, this is awesome - i've realy missed this command from yum
18:28 ironcamel     magoo_: what are you running in production?
18:28 ironcamel     ubuntu?
18:28 magoo_        yes
18:29 ironcamel     magoo_: is that the main thing you missed from yum?
18:29 magoo_        yeah
18:30 magoo_        everything else translated mostly
18:31 magoo_        i tend to remember file names more than package names so I relied on that command quite a bit in redhat/fedora
18:32 SEJeff_work   apt-file search /usr/bin/cowsay
18:32 magoo_        btw, the tcpflow command, in the example I gave above is the best thing since sliced bread
18:32 magoo_        just sayin :)
18:32 ironcamel     tcpflow is the best thing?
18:32 ironcamel     what does it do?
18:33 ironcamel     or apt-file search is the best thign?
18:33 magoo_        tcpflow
18:34 magoo_        it wraps tcpdump and separates out individual streams of communication into separate files for the criteria you specify (src port, interface, etc)
18:35 ironcamel     nice
18:36 ironcamel     apt-file takes forever to build its cache, it just finished
18:36 pdurbin       sorry, not following closely (doing real work), but a nice trick with yum is `yum install /usr/bin/screen`
18:36 ironcamel     neat
18:36 pdurbin       in this case, the package is also called "screen", so it's a dumb example.  but if you know the path to a file owned by a package, that's all you need to install it
18:36 magoo_        wha?
18:36 magoo_        you can just provide the file?
18:37 magoo_        nice
18:37 pdurbin       don't take my word for it :)
18:37 pdurbin       are there any answered "can yum do x" questions?
18:38 SEJeff_work   Someone should do that in the style of: http://whygitisbetterthanx.com
18:38 pdurbin       heh
18:39 pdurbin       ironcamel: i love that you care so much about package management when choosing your distro. i think decent package management is one of linux's best innovations
18:40 ironcamel     pdurbin: thanks. yeah, package management is the main difference between distros isn't it?
18:40 ironcamel     that, and maybe philosophy/community
18:41 pdurbin       check this out. my old college roommate and good friend, a windows developer, discovering linux package management: http://devlicio.us/blogs/billy_mccafferty/archive/2009/10/29/the-horn-project-bringing-quot-apt-get-install-quot-to-net-projects.aspx
18:41 pdurbin       "looks to see what dependencies the application has, downloads the latest of all of them, and installs them as well before installing the target application.  It does all of that with just one command line"
18:41 pdurbin       it's like a miracle :)
18:42 pdurbin       i should get him in #crimsonfu. more diversity. a windows guy
18:42 ironcamel     SEJeff_work: the "Easy to learn" item on http://whygitisbetterthanx.com/ i just WRONG :)
18:42 ironcamel     s/i just/is just/
18:43 magoo_        pdurbin: it'll just make him sad
18:43 ironcamel     haha
18:43 SEJeff_work   heh, thats not a discussion I'd want to get into
18:43 SEJeff_work   git is easy enough for a smart person to learn, however it has a higher learning curve than hg, svn, or bzr
18:44 agperson      its not as easy as saying "ilke subversion (or CVS) but X", though
18:44 SEJeff_work   Nope
18:44 SEJeff_work   http://www.digitalprognosis.com/pics/unix-editor-learning-curve.png
18:44 SEJeff_work   git is like vi ^^
18:45 agperson      at least its not like emacs!
18:45 SEJeff_work   Once you use git rebase -i or git bisect run, git will solve world hunger
18:45 SEJeff_work   s/use/learn/
18:45 pdurbin       heh. great graphic
18:45 SEJeff_work   Yup I try to save funny ones from the internets there
18:46 ironcamel     they should make a learning curve graph for scripting languages ... python would have the Notepad learning curve
18:46 SEJeff_work   ha
18:46 ironcamel     perl would be more like the emacs one :)
18:46 SEJeff_work   that would be lisp I'd think
18:47 ironcamel     yes
18:47 SEJeff_work   emacs is lisp too so thats fitting
18:50 pdurbin       qemu-img convert -O qcow2 -o preallocation=metadata /var/lib/libvirt/images/pdurbin1-disk0 /var/lib/libvirt/images/pdurbin1-disk0.qcow
18:50 pdurbin       qcow ftw
18:55 pdurbin       ironcamel: i haven't tried App::Notes yet
18:57 pdurbin       the guy at the security talk highly recommended this paper. great title. Hovav Shacham: The Geometry of Innocent Flesh on the Bone - http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~hovav/papers/s07.html
19:00 pdurbin       i just heard the new ubuntu is out
19:06 ironcamel     pffft
19:13 SEJeff_work   http://xkcd.com/178/
19:15 SEJeff_work   pdurbin, Thats one of my favs ^
19:16 ironcamel     am i missing something about pokemon and ubuntu?
19:32 pdurbin       no one cares?
19:35 pdurbin       Ubuntu 12.04 (Precise Pangolin) released! - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2012-April/000159.html
20:06 magoo_        well, I'll probably upgrade my htpc... but that's about the extent of it